Here's part 2 of my conversation with Chris & Jamie Bailey of Expedition Marriage. I hope you enjoy it!
Find Chris & Jamie Bailey on Instagram, where they share so much helpful and humorous content to help you grow in your marriage.
They also wrote a Couple's Devotional! Find it on Amazon here.No Need to Explain with the Mental Health Mamas
00:00:42 Kim: Hello, beautiful soul. I'm so happy that you're here. You're going to be listening in on my conversation with Jamie and Chris Bailey of Expedition Marriage, part two. If you haven't listened to the first half yet, I encourage you to go back an episode so that what you hear next will make more sense, but this was just a wonderful conversation. I'm so glad it happened. And before I turn you over to past Kim, so that she can run this interview, I wanted to mention that you'll hear me or Chris and Jamie mention the club. This is Christian Enneagram club. It was a members only space or community where I was helping people grow using the Enneagram month to month. And this, I hosted this for about two years. It is coming to a close, which is why I bring it up. You won't be able to join it. This is not something that you can join in on because it doesn't exist anymore. So that's the only reason that I bring that up. And without any more talking for me or for present Kim, I suppose let's turn it over to past Kim and continue this conversation with Jamie and Chris Bailey of Expedition Marriage.
00:01:59 Chris: I'm going to highlight another pattern. We didn't talk about this ahead of time. Hold on. As far as sixes with a lot of different numbers, let's, let's say it could be a seven, could be a nine, right? Where the other number right there, having some ideas, as far as like, Hey, you know what, that'd be fun if we do this, or it'd be neat if we did this and all that. And the six will, you know, because they see ahead because they have that, that, that capacity build, you know, they'll kind of start, it will appear like they're shooting holes. But really what they're saying is "I love you so much that I want you to be successful. So I want you to be aware of the pitfalls coming up." But since that's not, what's understood and it's, and it's not what's received then you're, you're Debbie downer you're, you know, just you're, you're a fun sucker. You're a dream killer. What do you know?
00:02:54 Jamie: I have actually been referred to those things early on in our marriage!
00:02:58 Chris: Why do you hate dreams? You know, so who hurt you? So, you know, it's, but what's once there's an understanding of that, but Hey, look, it's not that I'm trying to kill the fun or suck away everything. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to help you be successful because there's things I'm gifted from God to be able to foresee. And so that way you can be as successful as possible and be prepared for those things. And once we can start to see that, then we're able to move even further forward, instead of just, well, I guess I can't dream around here.
00:03:30 Jamie: Yeah, because that was a problem we actually ran into earlier on in our marriage, is he would come, he's a dreamer, you know, he's, he likes to, you know, make big things and, and how can I make this bigger and better? And I'm like, oh, but you can't do that because of this. And I'll be right. You know, but it's, the goal is not to squash the dream. The goal is because like, no, we can do this. And this is how it will best be done. But as soon as I start saying, but have you thought about this? He's just like, well, there goes my, my dream again. And so even before we, we learned the Enneagram, what we had learned, what I learned, he started identifying, or I would tell him, I'm like, no, I'm just trying to make it better. And so he's like, well, you, it feels like you're a fun sucker. You know what? It feels like you're squashing. All my dreams!
00:04:15 Chris: Not recommended, no, don't do that.
00:04:17 Jamie: And he wouldn't stress me out with his dreaming because he's like, oh, we need to build a big back deck and we can have this and have that. And I'm going, you know how much that's gonna cost. We don't have a truck to get all the wood and like all these thoughts and I'm all overwhelmed. But what I learned about him is he's a nine. He doesn't execute things. So it's like, you know what? I can freely allow him to dream because majority of the stuff he's not going to know, you know? And, and so like, we just learned that and it's like, you know, he just needs to dream. And I've learned, I don't need to figure it out just because he's saying it doesn't mean it's something that he has a plan to execute and stuff. And so he's learned how to receive me going if we want to get it done right and well, and avoid all the obstacles, bring Jamie in!
00:05:08 Jamie: You know, a One, they've got to know they're good, they're good enough. And you could be, you know, you're going to have dinner with a One who's just prepared it and make a comment, you know, about why did you, why did you boil it instead of do this? And boom, they're instantly mad and hurt. And it's because they've heard "you're doing it wrong" and "what you did is not good enough." And you could be standing there going, I don't know what happened. I don't know what just happened. And so having that information that a One is highly critical and, and personalizes a lot. Yeah. Self critical and self critical. And they personalize a lot. If you know that, as soon as you say, why did you do this? And they respond in a big way. You now know, I don't need to defend against that. I need to, "Babe, this is delicious. I was just wondering, you know, it was just a question. So you can add clarifying
00:06:05 Chris: Yeah, like, "Hey did you cook this al dente?" "Why? Is it underdone?"
00:06:08 Jamie: They hear different things, you know? And if a Two, you know, maybe feels like they're an inconvenience, you may find a strong reaction with that. And when you see that reaction, you want to know, I don't need to defend or fight against that or criticize it. I need to lean in towards it, and that's kind of what we want to go with because we've created an actually, and if you can go to our website and get this, and we're going to walk it through, we're going to walk you through it first. But if you go to expedition, marriage.org/enneagram, this is a free download that you can get; that way you can sit down with your spouse and go through this with them. But it's a bit of a formula that we have that will help you.
00:06:52 Chris: We didn't print it out, we have it on our laptop
00:06:54 Jamie: Yeah. We have it on our laptop here. And this is, it's a space to know for each of you, the bare bones, basic desires, basic fears. You want to identify those and talk about those. And now I'll let you go ahead and explain.
00:07:05 Chris: And then as far as, you know, we want to, we want to create a new pattern, right? We don't want to keep falling into these things that, that trigger us. And then that trigger our spells. So that which triggers us and just keep going round and round. So first off we have to recognize the trigger. And one of the ways to do that is just is to, and this is on, we have some blanks, "When my spouse does blank." There's what, there's an action. "When I see this action, when I see that, I do this." Right, that's our pattern. This is what this is, what's going on. That's just the surface.
00:07:36 Jamie: Yeah. So it was like what we were saying when my spouse gets anxious and irritable, I minimize. And so it's about identifying when they do this, this is what I do.
00:07:47 Chris: Right. And then once we identified that part of the pattern, let's dig a little deeper. So "When my spouse does the same thing, right. I feel this feeling" Right. So when Jamie's being anxious or, or, or, or ramped up, I might feel desperate or helpless or like a failure. Okay. So then, so now we can start to put this together. What's driving, what's my motivators, what's more of my fears that are, what buttons, what are my buttons being pushed. Right. And then the final step is then starting to realize, okay, all right. When I do feel this way, and when I act this way, this is the kind of thing that I need from my spouse. Right. This is what will help.
00:08:28 Jamie: Right, so when I feel helpless and desperate, I need this. And, and what do you need? Like with me, what would you need?
00:08:35 Chris: Reassurance, you know, support to get a holding my hand. You know, saying I'm not mad at you or even, or even like, we're okay. But the, you know, I'm just upset with this, right? I'm not, I'm not upset. I'm not upset at you. I'm just frustrated at this, this situation because she's allowed to be frustrated near me. And unfortunately, sometimes the way that, well, we've acted in the past sends messages, saying that she can't even get frustrated near me because that I get all, all wound up and that's not fair. And so, you know, so when she sees, so she might not see that I'm getting, you know, helpless or desperate, but if she sees the minimizing, then that's a clue going, oh honey.
00:09:15 Jamie: he feels helpless.
00:09:17 Chris: Yeah. We're, we're, we're okay. I'm okay with you. You know, I'm not mad at your frustrated with you or this isn't about you, then I'm like, oh, okay.
00:09:26 Jamie: Because without that information, what minimizing doesn't look like, "oh, he feels helpless and desperate for me to connect with him." What it looks like is "you don't care how I feel. You want me to be quiet and you don't care how I feel." Yes. And then that's what I'm going to respond to. You know? And so when you sit down and have this conversation, because if I know he's feeling helpless and desperate, I want to lean towards that. I don't want my husband feeling that way. You know? And if we were to flip this whole scenario is, you know, when I get anxious, what would happen is he would minimize. And then I, you know, read that and I check out or I amp up. And so you want it, you want to get in the middle of that, interrupt that with a different response. And that's what changes the pattern of your marriage. But you can only do that when you know what's really happening because otherwise, when I see minimization, I see rejection and I see that I'm alone.
00:10:27 Chris: Yeah, no support
00:10:28 Jamie: But that's not what it is. Minimization is fear. It's, I'm, I'm scared that this is the beginning of the end. I'm desperate to connect and I need to know that we're okay. And once I reassure we are okay, we can continue on. And the same thing when I'm overwhelmed and anxious, if he were to interrupt that first with, "she needs me." And so he can bring the support and the encouragement and the safety.
00:10:55 Chris: I'm here, what do you need?
00:10:57 Jamie: Yes, yes. Instead of reacting, and now you've completely changed the pattern and you've developed a new pattern based on what the Enneagram gives you and based on what you, what you know. And so the answers, as far as like the anxiety and the, you know, ramping up or irritability or how he, you know, minimizes that, not all Sixes respond the same way I do. And so there's not a stamp that "a Six will do this." They're all different. In fact, I tested as a One in the beginning because safety to me is done through rules and structure and order. But I don't, I don't care about being, you know, right. And all of that, I care about being safe. And so there's no classic, "all sixes, all ones, they all behave like this." You need to have that discussion and see what that looks like in your individual marriage. So you can change the past.
00:11:51 Chris: Yeah it's just one piece of the puzzle.
00:11:53 Jamie: Yes. And, and it all comes down to studying yourself and knowing yourself well, and then studying your spouse, just as much as you study your own because or yourself, because when you become your best self, you're setting your spouse up to become their best selves, and that's the whole goal. And so that's how you disrupt the patterns. You identify what it is, and you see what each other needs. And you kind of go through life with a filter. He goes through life in our marriage with a filter of "my wife likes feeling safe and secure. Let me give her as many details as I can on those things. Let me just constantly try to provide that." I know he loves peace and calm and connection. "Let me do the best I can to provide that." And that will just change and prevent a whole lot of, of negative patterns that go on in your marriage.
00:12:48 Kim: Hey, I wanted to interrupt myself early quick, just to let you know, if you are enjoying learning about the Enneagram, kind of from this faith perspective, but you want to take it a step deeper and a step further and learn about it from start to finish, how to use it, how to put it into practice and all of its parts. I'm going to invite you to the first beta course of Christian Enneagram university. We'll be going through Enneagram 1 0 1. It will be based on my book, the Enneagram for beginners. And we'll take six weeks, go through the Enneagram in depth, live with me in a course class setting. And I'm just really excited for this. So it will all be online. You'll have lifetime access to everything and the updates, and it's going to be a great time. So if that's something you're interested in learning more about, I want to invite you to the link in the show notes, and that will take you straight to it, where all the info is, and you could sign up right now, if you want it to. I hope you'll join us in Enneagram. 1 0 1 inside Christian and Graham university. Okay. Back to me.
00:13:58 Kim: I love all of this so much. Thank you. Okay. So I want to be mindful of your time. We have a little bit of time for Q and A though, if that's all right. If you are here with us live and you have a question for Chris and Jamie, please drop it in the comment section. You guys can't see the comments section, unfortunately. I'll be reading them to you, but you've been getting, "Ooh, I love that" "understanding is so key" Like these have been dropping in as you've been talking. Yeah. Yeah. Mary has seen a lot of this. So often in my life in relationships, I don't remember what we were talking about, but I brought it up on our screen. Everybody could see it when it popped up. Rebecca is saying, "I don't know my husband's Enneagram number," (which I'm going to have a question for you guys about that while some of these other questions are coming in), "but I'm fairly certain I'm a Six and this is making me think he might be a nine because it so familiar." Yeah. And then let's see, Mary says something a lot, lots of things. They are, they are very holding on to every word that you're saying. But my question is, while these are coming in, just in case anybody is still typing their questions, what if you don't know your spouse's number? How can you start to like, and I know you've touched on a lot of this already, but how can you start to grow in your relationship if you don't know your spouse's Enneagram number, or they are not in a place where they want to even explore that?
00:15:28 Chris: Right. Right. If I could answer first, if they're not willing to take any kind of wisdom to find out there, any of your member, they're an Eight.
00:15:39 Kim: Or a type Five, I found that too. Like you can't, you can't understand me. I'm not understandable.
00:15:46 Jamie: And there's part of that, you know, I'm sure you could speak to that as well. There are, cause we don't ever want to just go labeling people numbers, because again, I could have easily been labeled as the One, if you were just watching me, you know? And so we don't really know what those things are. We can understand the Enneagram enough, study the numbers and get ideas. And that's what I would recommend is knowing the other numbers like doing, you use your book for that, get the basic understanding of the numbers and go, "okay, I can rule this one out and I can rule some out" and then play around with the other ones, know the motivators and then sneak in, you know, questions like that. Even the form work we're going to provide, you don't really need to have an Enneagram number. You can have the conversation. Well, you know how your arguments play out.You know, one always walks away, one yells, one belittles, or gets passive aggressive and dig into that and ask, you know, "How do you feel when I start snapping during an argument?" "How does it make you feel when I walk away?" And so that allows you to start changing a pattern with or without the Enneagram. Cause what, we don't need to know our numbers to have these patterns or dances in our marriage, but that I would explore. I would kind of kick out the ones that, you know, that is not a fit, you know, that, that one's not a fit right there and play around with them and, and talk about, you know, the primary things of that number, the, the basic fears and desires, bring those topics into conversation somehow. And see, they're like, no, I don't care if I'm right. That doesn't bother me at all.
00:17:24 Chris: If they get peopled out, for example, get peopled out real easy, and then like doing a lot of research, they're probably not a seven.
00:17:32 Jamie: Right, right. You know, and if they're, you know, very calm and like things and they minimize, or they avoid problems or avoid conflict, they're not an Eight. You know, versus if they are, if they'll take any challenge and they'll step up to the plate and they don't care about conflict, they might be an Eight! So pick up on some of the clues, but you have to understand them yourself to know
00:17:53 Chris: Well, and a little experimentation is not, not ever, ever a bad thing. Right. Just warmly lovingly step into certain things and go, okay, well, let me see how this works today. Let me see how they react to this. Let me see if this can be encouraging and uplifting.
00:18:09 Jamie: Yeah. And do it with a spirit of seeking to understand them, not to find their number per se. Like that's the by-product of it. But it's more about, I'm trying to understand my spouse.
00:18:24 Chris: What's that verse? "In humility be understanding with one another..."
00:18:31 Kim: It is a verse. Probably. Mary is asking what would be some of your top advice for a marriage between a Two and a Three.
00:18:42 Jamie: A two and a three.Okay. Yeah. I don't know which is what...
00:18:47 Kim: Mary is the type Two and then her spouse is the Type Three.
00:18:51 Chris: All right, for the Three, make sure that you are not trying to multitask whenever you're engaging. Absolutely. Don't have a phone open, looking at other things, pause the DVR, whatever it is and make sure you're, that's, you're investing that time when you're engaging for whatever time that works. You'll get a return on investment. Right. If you, if it takes you 15 minutes to have a conversation, it's better than the two hours of argument.
00:19:18 Jamie: Right. Right. Yeah. Because what a, Threes tend to be non-emotional, they're not as emotional and they don't want to have these deep conversations and all of that. And so it's not difficult for a Three to just blaze right over the emotions of a Two. Two's are very engaging and relational and more emotional and caring. And so a Two could just find themselves pouring completely out, and a Three is not even recognizing that they're doing it. So the biggest thing, and here's like the growth for a Two is they need to learn how to ask for help. And so a Two in a marriage needs to say, "Honey, I need you to put your phone down and talk with me." I need you, you know, and they need to identify; and it's, it's even hard for a Two to recognize what they need because they don't even know. They'd like to, "I don't want to have any needs. I just want to meet others' needs." And so they need to know "What do I need?" And a Two needs to make sure they have a voice in their marriage because a Three won't naturally do that and stuff. And so that, that's what I would, the Three needs to give one-on-one attention and make sure in all their, their time-blocking and managing and their schedules, "I've made time for my wife."
00:20:32 Chris: My checklist.
00:20:33 Jamie: Yes. Put in there delegation for "time with my Two wife."
00:20:37 Chris: Yeah. And I would say for the, for the Two as well, absolutely, you know, what Jamie was saying, but also try to make sure that you're giving some sort of affirmation when they are doing what you want them to do. Right. Give them the gold star.
00:20:51 Jamie: Yes. The two to the three. Yes. This is what I like. You've done great!
00:20:53 Chris: You did great listening to me. Thanks for taking that time and you know, to talk and all that. Yes. Should we have to think our spouses for spending time with us? No, but if we reinforce the behaviors, they know what you want. Right. It's not, it's not like just giving them a treat. Good boy. Now they know what they want and they know what works. And we gravitate towards that.
00:21:19 Jamie: And a Three likely needs to be told they likely needs to be told.
00:21:23 Chris: Because they don't think like you.
00:21:26 Kim: No, that's exactly like you said, usual error. Yeah. No, that's so good. Right now Mary says, first of all, "And all the Twos said AMEN!" And then she said "So helpful. Thank you so much." Yeah. Bonnie is asking what are typical harmful patterns that happen between a three-wing-four and a nine-wing-one to look out for and how to avoid falling into those relationship patterns. So you talked about patterns between a six and a nine and kind of how you can spiral when you're triggering each other. You know, what about a three and a nine?
00:22:06 Jamie: Three can tend to move faster, want to do much more and do it faster. They execute like this. A nine-wing-one? That's what it was, right? A nine-wing-one is going to by nature, move a little slower and more methodically. And I'm going to move when I know that this is gonna going to be right and done well where a three is faster.
00:22:29 Chris: He tried to decide on something to buy a large purchase, not so large.
00:22:35 Jamie: Yes. And so with that, it can be the conflict of "too fast, too slow, bail." And we get, we get nowhere because you've just, you've overwhelmed me. I don't know if it's too much too fast. And so the meat in that is for the Three, you know, to still be, you know, adventurous and do all the things and have the plans, but to make room and make space for the 9w1 to get on board because they need to move a little bit slower. A Nine won't have a problem with a Three taking the lead. That that is like very comforting, you know? And so, and, and Nine goes to a Three in strength. And so that's a great balance, you know, but you need to know that because if you do it too fast and you kind of force without allowing space for the 9w1, you're going to have conflict. And you're going to have one wanting to slow down and one wanting to drag and pull forward.
00:23:30 Chris: And that, yeah. That one wing, right. That 9w1, you know, that's why I load the dishwasher. That's why I pack the car when we're on vacation. And I, if we just learned, "Hey, you know what, just sit the bags, if you want to help, set the bags next to the car, let me put it in there." Cause I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's just, I've already played Tetris out in my head, and I know exactly where everything's going to go. So if you want, you know, and I've, I've been thoughtful for that. So now if it plays on a couple of different levels, if you try to put it in there, I don't have a voice you've taken awaymy, you know, my voice, my options you've disregarded me and you're not doing it right. So there's two check boxes that just got clicked off on that's going to go into a trigger.
00:24:16 Jamie: Yeah. And it's not easy with a couple paired like that. It's easier for the Three to take the leadership role and for the Nine to just go, "just forget it" and just be frustrated and, and pack a lot of resentment along the way. Because the 3w4 is a driver in the relationship and the 9w1 it's like, well, I got quality input but they don't care to listen. And so you can end up with a lot of resentment that you may not see and it may all of a sudden dump out in a very passive-aggressive way because they've withheld a lot because Nines aren't good at, I know, you know, they, they don't communicate that they're upset. They'll just be like, forget it. And a 3w4 might just keep running forward until it's enough. And then the Nine comes out and dumps all this passive aggressiveness into it where the Three it's like, "I had no idea you were even upset." So that, that could go a couple of different ways.
00:25:08 Kim: Well, you have helped Bonnie. She's like, yes. So I think that, I think that it, you know, it was very, very insightful too. Like I agree with everything you said, as far as the Enneagram goes, you know, you guys are the marriage experts, but as far all the Enneagram stuff, I'm like, no, no correction needed, like, this is perfect from an Enneagram One. This is perfect, so high praise. So where can, we have just a few more minutes, where can we find you? And where are some resources? Cause I know you have plenty. Like where can they find you?
00:25:49 Chris: Well, we've got our website expeditionmarriage.org. And like, and for you all expeditionmarriage.org/enneagram.
00:25:57 Kim: Yeah. I've put that up here so they can see that. So it's all good to go.
00:26:01 Chris: Thank you. We also have our own Instagram: Expedition_Marriage. We have our podcast, which is Expedition Marriage Podcast, or Exhibition Marriage with Chris and Jamie, where we give tips and supports and tools like this. And we have a book.
00:26:24 Jamie: Yes we do.
00:26:25 Kim: Do you have one with you?
00:26:28 Chris: We just happen to have one! Yes.
00:26:31 Jamie: The whole devotional, but it's just, it's for newlyweds and all newlywed wannabes and a lot of this stuff, it's a 52 week devotional. So it's one a week. You could take your time with it. There's scripture in it. There's a devotional in it. And there's five questions for every, every devotional that will get you talking about things and it's real conversations and it is, it will help you because we're all about connection. We're all about connecting and understanding each other. And that that's the goal. Yeah. That's the goal of, of what we've put together with that. And so, and then there's a little closing prayer in it as well. But those, I mean, if you're trying to find a number that's a great way to do it. Cause we've got questions in there, you know, that will help that. And so we do have that, but all of the things can be found on our, on our website, expeditionmarriage.org.
00:27:27 Chris: We have, we own, the ".com" but it's, it's not forwarding over correctly. So ".org"
00:27:33 Kim: Yes. Make sure "expeditionmarriage.org" expedition_marriage on Instagram Expedition Marriage with Chris and Jamie, yeah, on podcasts. I think we got it. Yeah. Yeah. They'll find you. I promise. And they'll, they'll come to me if they're like, where are they? So, okay. Yes. Okay. Everyone's saying this is so awesome. This has been such a rich conversation. You guys have given us so many things to think about a lot of tangible things like thank you for providing that free resource about the Enneagram and you know, all of that is I'm so grateful. Do you have any final thoughts to share with us before we say goodbye?
00:28:15 Jamie: Not really a whole lot other than...
00:28:17 Kim: I mean you shared a lot.
00:28:19 Jamie: Yeah. And just to reinforce that, just seek to understand each other, you know, and it's like, God tells us to be, you know, quick to listen, you know, and, and slow to anger and says, and you know, quick to, we need to hear one another and we need to be asking questions and we need to be listening, not for our own gain, our own benefit, but to really understand "what lens is my spouse looking through life with?" and try to understand that. We're not going to get it a hundred percent, but just, we all want to be heard and understood. And so offer that to one another in your marriages.
00:28:56 Kim: Hmm. That's beautifully said, wonderfully said, okay. I think that's perfect. I think that's perfect. And then on, if you are catching this right now, make sure to go, like, I'm just going to offer this up. Hopefully you're okay with it. Like go into their DMs, Expedition_marriage, let them know what you got out of it. That it was a valuable, send them some love and appreciation. Even if you're catching this on the replay, like they're going to still be there, go some love in Instagram and tell them we sent you. Yeah. Well, thank you everybody. Thank you for being here. Thank you for showing up in the comments and asking your questions and I will see you at the next guest speaker. Bye guys. Thank you.
00:29:42 Kim: All right. That is it for my conversation with Jamie and with Chris. Jamie and Chris, thank you so much for allowing me to share this conversation here on the podcast so that more people can hear it and gain wisdom and insight into Enneagram patterns in their marriage or their relationships. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that for you. Beautiful listener, make sure to click the links that will lead you to Chris and Jamie Bailey at expedition marriage, let them know what you thought of their conversation. Show them some love, connect with them in whatever way you want to. They have devotional ready for you. They have Instagram where they share all sorts of helpful things and a lot of humor as well for you and your marriage. And so just make sure go get to know them, go connect with them. I highly recommend it. And that is all I have for you this week. I will see you or connect with you, I suppose, in next week's episode. Talk soon! Bye.